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Weapon Technology and an Analogous Period?

Started by Aspiring Warrior, May 12, 2017, 07:52:18 PM

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Aspiring Warrior

Hi.  Big medieval fantasy buff and I was thinking of joining with a mercenary.  The thing is, in the rules and intro topics, there isn't much discussion about the most prevalent weapons and armor types in this setting.  Now, I am a huge nut when it comes to medieval martial technology, particularly the relationship between the evolution of weapons and the evolution of armor.

This, of course, can make or break my enjoyment of an RP as, while I can deal with, and even enjoy certain anachronisms, others strain believability for me...

So, first: what is the most prevalent armor?  I'll assume padded under-armor / "light armor" is basically universal.  But beyond that, what Century should we be using for inspiration?
*13th with then entire body covered in mail, plus Iron Helm and Heater shield?.
*14th with full body mail with the addition of some plate covering to reinforce against axes and maces
*15th when soldiers and men-at-arms discarded their mail and shields in favor of full body plate harnesses
*16th century when matchlock firearms meant that soldiers needed to sacrifice leg (and sometimes arm) protection to add material to their cuirasses

Of course, the armor will effect what sort of weapons become most prevalent - something that can be discussed later but this largely has to do with what weapons can have a measurable result against certain enemies.


Also, according to the Thanatos page, Temple Knights wear their swords over their shoulders, or rather, it talks about which shoulder they can wear their sword over.  Now considering the paragraph makes no explicit mention of back-scabbards, it sounds as though they are considered common enough that they aren't worth mentioning.  This begs the question: Is this just an error or are shortswords and back-scabbards normal in universe?


These may seem like trivialities but the conventions can fundamentally change the way an RP goes.  Say my merc has a Plate Harness, even if its just a brigandine, and he is carrying a 15th century style pollaxe.  I end up in a fight with a character wearing only maille (and padding) with spear and shield, I'm going to RP myself with an unfair advantage, because my gear gives me an unfair advantage.  Just like if I end up in a fight against some guy who draws his sword over his shoulder: I'm going to envision a sword short enough to be drawn over the shoulder (2ft?)...against my guy's 4ft longsword.

Now, if these questions are considered irrelevant, that's fine.  That just means that SotE is not going to be the right fit for me and I won't sign up.  I'd just rather know now than in a month when I'm in the middle of a topic and I'm stuck trying to unlearn how physics works

visualspice

@Viscount Rhi-Rhi would be the best person to answer this but if you read through the lore, each area has it's own unique culture.  Places like Yorieq and Essryn are tropical and dessert climates so things like plate mail would be impractical versus the more northern and technologically advanced region of Connlaoth, which is known as the technological hub of this fantasy continent in weapons,  technology , architecture, infrastructure, etc. They are the only place utilizing basic wheel lock firearms, so the army's armor would reflect that. However, one must also consider pricing as well when dealing with a character's armor. Could  a character afford particular armor outside of the military, how could they obtain it, etc.
CHECK OUT MY LATEST SITE EVENT!
The Never King- a king erased from history because of his dabblings in dark magic (among other things...) suddenly because a present day problem when an unlikely group of adventurers 'awakens' him from the grave. You can read more about the event on the plotting page here and information page here!

I ran the Connlaothian civil war. For more info, check out it's page here. The war has now turned into a 'Cold War' with it's plotting page found here. It's no longer a huge site wide event but the scars are there.

My currently active characters:
Grand Duke Calent Allarrick // Aella Coleridge // Blaith Harmond // Kella Harmond  // Hope Allarrick // Krah Mordeth // Mehtwald Allaen // Zannrick Austengarde // Katahnia Harmond // Jinai Rinstgate  // Leif Arrant // Dekka Blade  // Kentamin Dhelsbar  // Dahnny Quills  // Victoria Armani  // Ohna Waitsmith  // Jarrett L'isson  // Trest Arristaire  // Clayton "Jack-in-the-Box" Wilson // Cullen  //  Vels // Shay // Killian  // Fluke  // Mellesta // Danning // Petrin // Gavriella // Dornsley // Miersck // Aelith // Iyla // Angel // Ellarrah // Persea Ah'nikh // Phone // Jace // Ne'friss // Opus Dey // Lord Amalin // Ehvren // Narophne // Edward // Dehzrehn // Chase Vander // Valeska // Jayo //Layana // Rezvek // Red Sun // Harmanaija // Mirajah // Liana // Oska //Hay-gee // Beatrice // Ninn // Dao'bachpa //Pao'orha // Mae'leena // Davishire // Davina// Gemla // Hyathia //Thethysis // Urd // Missendria // Ina-herit // Feni'tat // Phen // Evelyn // Kell // Striker // Ithica // Connor // Vlint // The Gambler // Lord Aegis // Thomas // Quince // Althea // Vaeyna // Ihlsepar Asawa'eht // Krazxick // Djchastese // Katoma // Na'o // Moonlight // Bluesong //Caollette // Artemis // Arrick // Evetta //Jackal // Winston //Lenny // Anphis // Hebara //Ibra // Dre'hn // Veride // Arthund // Kao

Aspiring Warrior

Actually, going by historical examples, plate mail was actually quite common in the deserts of Arabia and northern Africa.  Admittedly, Ottoman Mirror Armor isn't aesthetically the same as 15th century panoply but at a functional level, it is at least very similar.  Next thing to remember is, if there is significant interaction between nations, there will be trade and the sharing of technology.  While the use of firearms is apparently uncommon enough to justify its lack of trafficking, more common weapons, like longbows and crossbows, swords, spears, etc. would still result in the adoption of armor with very similar natures.  For example, upon contact with Celtic warriors, Rome, seeing the superiority of Celtic technology to Greek designs, began to adopt Celtic hardware: helmets based on Celtic designs, Shields based on the the Battlesea, the adoption of mail for use by heavy infantry and the introduction of the Spatha all trace their origin to the Gaelic conquest.

As for the matter of price, keep in mind, not all armor is created equal.  While your average soldier probably could not afford a full suit of tempered plate, softer mild steel armor was still quite affordable.  And of course, then there's lamellar armor, which can be even cheaper, probably the prefered armor of your peasant levies in the form of the brigandine.  Another thing to remember is that, since armor had to be tailored to fit the wearer, it was not uncommon for a soldier to start his career with just a helmet and shield and then build his suit over time.  And lastly, keep in mind that armor was not considered a frivolous expense in a time when fighting was not uncommon.  Think of it this way: You are an average peasant; you know that some day, you are going to be drafted into the army; you also know that you will only be able to bring your own own property with you into battle; does draining your life savings seem like an absurd cost to guarantee your own survival?  And of course, cost is primarily tied to quantity rather than quality.  If all I can afford is a suite of torso protection (cuirass, plackart, backplate), why not buy that instead of wasting money on a full body mail harness that turns out to be worthless at stopping these newfangled warhammers that everyone is using.

Of course, magic throws a new wrench into the works as defensive magic may be able to match the protection afforded by plate armor, or offensive spells capable of becoming as effective as firearms, nullifying the need for powerful ranged weapons to a degree (after all, a non-mage in a mage society could still need to fight at range with a bow).  So, I guess its not so important that every country has access to the same armor and weapons, but they must at least be able to rival each other in some way.  After all, Warfare is the most primal and monsterous form of competition with the highest stakes imaginable.  Everyone inclined to participate in such an endeavor would want as much of an advantage as possible and when that arms race is not acknowledged, it can strain believability.

At least, that's my take on things.  As I said, you guys don't need to change to accommodate my style; I just want to know if these questions are antagonistic to what the site as a whole wants and if my understand of medieval and early modern warfare is going to affect other people's enjoyment of any potential future RPs...

Draconian

As an off note (and not to discourage you) SotE as a whole isnt really combat based and when there is combat it's usually story based and purely because you want to write it. Usually a sort of us vs them. Us being the players (you and your rp partners) and Them being NPCs you write. (Though if you and another player both want to write nothing but your characters fighting one another have at it)

Also while most of us can appreciate physics and scabbards and arm lengths (and sword lengths) there are a number of us here that do not - though the majority do appreciate some believability when it comes to that stuff.

If you're looking for a fun place to write stories for the next decade, SotE's your home! There are lots of players to choose from and maybe you'll find a kindered spirit!

If you're trying to find a place that policies characters armor and weapons, I dont think this is the place. We have guidelines and a 'geneally they wear...' but there are far too many characters to make sure they're wearing the appropriate type of mail and everyone here just wants to have fun. We, when we find them, give pokes about zippers and jeans and generally things that just havent been invented. (Bras too!)

Basically, because sote is big and old its "here's the world. Here's the rules, dont break them."  Sometimes things get a little bent but most of us aren't too concerned with what branding of armor the characters have as long as it 'fits the setting' because we're telling stories about the character. Logic comes into play when weapons and armor get involved and fighting, of course, but I dont think anything quite that specific has ever really been needed.

Aspiring Warrior

Just a random factoid about bras...they actually were worn during the Middle Ages.  The remains of such undergarments have actually been found in a castle in Austria (iirc) and to be fair, the need for support is not something people in modern times just figured out.

As for the matter of "setting," that's what I'm asking.  Because, if I do give my character plate armor, I don't want to end up fighting some mook/bandit/whatever kitted out in mail.  To me, mail is to plate as plate is to kevlar.  And pitting a 13th Century Knight against a 15th Century Man-at-arms would be as absurd a fight as that man-at-arms fighting a modern soldier.  That's why I'm asking about prevalent armor.  Because if I have access to full plate, and I encounter a character (Primary or Temporary) who happens to be using mail, it's going to break my immersion and if it happens too often, it's going to limit my ability to enjoy the roleplay.  And I don't want to invest months of playtime, only to discover, in the middle of ten different RPs, that I'm not buying the fantasy anymore.  I've been there before and I have to say, it was old the first time around.

Draconian



Most I can say to you is... Be picky with who you potentially play with? If you decide this is the place for you.

Like i said, this isnt really a combat based writing board. Plate armor can look cool so... some charactets wear plate armour when they're knighting it up.  Theres heavy calvalry and foot soliders.

If you're extremely concerned about if the dragon riding knights are wearing 15th century armor instead of being worried about a dragon interested in a canned meal, i dunno what to tell ya.

The century of armor the countries have was, i believe, not really brought into consideration! This game doesnt take place on earth and there is magic. You can slice down a non-armored mage, sure, but they can probably turn the armored up person into a popscicle just as quickly, so in that situation the armor doesn't really matter.

Anyway. There are no strict rules for what your character wears as long as it isnt synthetic/machine made or...  zippers. Y'know. The things that sperate us from the animals.

visualspice

As Draconian pointed out, you can definitely be picky with who you write stories with. You are, by no means, required to rp with everyone you talk to or has an interest with you. You have the freedom to accept and reject certain storylines based on the writer, their character(s) and character profile(s) as well as location.

There is a 'wants and limits' section of the forum where you can write as much or as little as you want so that those desiring to rp with you can read up on so that they can understand you don't want to run into disenchantment in regards to particular armors, etc with your character and it's interactions with others.

And I hate to say it but there is a lot of ignorance on precise detailing, as this forum is for 'fun' and a lot of people use 'generalities' over specifics when certain things come into play. This is also a fantasy rpg, so there are a lot of 'made up' races, armor types, magics, weapons, etc (keeping it within the rules, naturally) However, there is a certain understood structure, and it's more or less something you'll have to see here for yourself rather than us telling you :) You always run into the risk of some things being misinterpreted. We're all humans here, heck, even I make mistakes a lot (and I love myself some good history- but my forte is ancient egypt and the wild west- go figure!)

Most members are also SUPER friendly where as, if they make a genuine mistake, they normally own up to it and will fix what is a known error. Or if there are serious problems, that's what the administrators and site owners are for!

We're also not overly picky here unless it ruins the pre-established lore and breaks rules. We have done so in the past, asked members to revise character profiles but we also have a separate board for 'general' rp that does not adhere to the lore, so it's a free for all (but also does not affect the main site as it is it's own sub-forum)- and normally characters or members who have a hard time adhereing to site lore, we will direct to that subforum.

Also, because this site is so large, open and active, we can't and won't always catch lore breaking mistakes as they come in. When  it is brought up, we do address it and discuss a lot of issues among the administrative staff to ensure things are handle with various points of input.

Not sure how much my input helps but hey, if you love drama and fantasy- you will only have a good time here ;)

PS- most of us love torturing characters if that helps your decision at all <3
CHECK OUT MY LATEST SITE EVENT!
The Never King- a king erased from history because of his dabblings in dark magic (among other things...) suddenly because a present day problem when an unlikely group of adventurers 'awakens' him from the grave. You can read more about the event on the plotting page here and information page here!

I ran the Connlaothian civil war. For more info, check out it's page here. The war has now turned into a 'Cold War' with it's plotting page found here. It's no longer a huge site wide event but the scars are there.

My currently active characters:
Grand Duke Calent Allarrick // Aella Coleridge // Blaith Harmond // Kella Harmond  // Hope Allarrick // Krah Mordeth // Mehtwald Allaen // Zannrick Austengarde // Katahnia Harmond // Jinai Rinstgate  // Leif Arrant // Dekka Blade  // Kentamin Dhelsbar  // Dahnny Quills  // Victoria Armani  // Ohna Waitsmith  // Jarrett L'isson  // Trest Arristaire  // Clayton "Jack-in-the-Box" Wilson // Cullen  //  Vels // Shay // Killian  // Fluke  // Mellesta // Danning // Petrin // Gavriella // Dornsley // Miersck // Aelith // Iyla // Angel // Ellarrah // Persea Ah'nikh // Phone // Jace // Ne'friss // Opus Dey // Lord Amalin // Ehvren // Narophne // Edward // Dehzrehn // Chase Vander // Valeska // Jayo //Layana // Rezvek // Red Sun // Harmanaija // Mirajah // Liana // Oska //Hay-gee // Beatrice // Ninn // Dao'bachpa //Pao'orha // Mae'leena // Davishire // Davina// Gemla // Hyathia //Thethysis // Urd // Missendria // Ina-herit // Feni'tat // Phen // Evelyn // Kell // Striker // Ithica // Connor // Vlint // The Gambler // Lord Aegis // Thomas // Quince // Althea // Vaeyna // Ihlsepar Asawa'eht // Krazxick // Djchastese // Katoma // Na'o // Moonlight // Bluesong //Caollette // Artemis // Arrick // Evetta //Jackal // Winston //Lenny // Anphis // Hebara //Ibra // Dre'hn // Veride // Arthund // Kao

One-time Warrior

Saddly, I will not be joining the site in its current state as there are a number of unfortunate anachronisms that, sadly, shatter immersion and limit the believability of the stories I had hoped to write.  I desperately wanted to let things go at that but, unfortunately the issues that drove me away are based on the same infuriating myths that agitate anyone with a genuine interest in things that are medieval.

Serf/Slaves
Starting with the smallest, It is absurd to think that a society would create two of the same social class.  In reality, slavery and feudalism (the political structure that created the serf contract), are inherently at odds with each other.

Slavery revolves around small scale ownership of property.  Take, for example, Roman Gladiatorial tradition, Scandinavian Thralls or Southern American plantation culture.  In all cases, owning slaves is extremely expensive, prohibitively so.  This meant that if someone intended to rely on slave labor, they could ownly control land that their slaves could reliably work.

Things began to change in the High Middle ages as the manorial system left more and more land in the control of a lord.  Eventually, lords came to own so much land on their own that they simply could not afford to employ slaves to farm it.  Instead, they allowed commoners to take up residence on their land and farm it.  In exchange for a place to live and the protection of their kneckts or "bondsmen," these farmers payed taxes in the form of a portion their grain harvest.  House servants saw a similar relationship with their masters: it simply proves simpler and more cost effective to pay a workforce, particularly when you lived in such close proximity to said workforce.

Another reason why slavery didn't work in the Middle Ages was the logistical cost of aquiring slaves.  Say a new lord takes control of a manor; historically, it was often simpler and cheaper to just let the people living there stay and pay taxes to the new lord, rather than to move in a bunch of slaves to do the work of the last lord's slaves.  Taking Prisoners in battle would be the next best option, except you could often make more money ransoming the POWs back to their families.  As for criminals, how trustworthy is a thief or a killer?    No, it was easier to just execute or mutilate criminals.
[close]

People Would Drink Water
The problem with drinking alcohol all the time is that alcohol is the exact opposite of thirst quenching.  If someone did try to survive by taking hits off a wineskin, they would eventually die, whether from alcohol poisoning or dehydration, didn't matter.

As for not drinking water, this is a hoax and you should be ashamed for believing it.  First, fresh sources of drinking water, such as the Tigris, Euphrates, Indus and Nile rivers were the foundation of civilization, specifically because they were ideal sources of clean drinking water.  Second, even if you were unlucky enough to only have dirty water, fire was easy to make.  All you would have to do is boil it and presto, you had perfectly drinkable water.  And let's not forget wells.  After all, I myself can vouch for the consumability of even unfiltered well water (I drank about a gallon today).
[close]

Why is Everyone wearing Leather
While partially tied to my own bias, leather would be extremely rare in an agrarian society.  Why?  Because leather is tied closely to the cattle industry.  Prior to the late 1800s, with its seas of Midwestern, Australian and Japanese cattle, a family of farmers might only own one or two animals whole were worth more alive than dead.  After all, those oxen were not only a source of milk or cheese, but a work animal, used to haul a plow or cart.

Not to say that people did not kill cattle for beef and leather, but such things were rare and what material it gave you was earmarked for a number of roles that took priority over tacky vests: soles of shoes needed to be made of layers of hard leather, something absolutely necessary for anyone who spent any amount of time on their feet.  After all, medieval people did not have polymer rubber to protect their feet from sharp rocks and tree branches.  Belts, of course were improtant but could often be made of jut or hemp rope if you happened to be poor.
[close]

Traveling
People assume that travel within medieval Europe was impossible because A) only horses can be used as pack animals and B) only rich folk had horses.  While the latter point is true to an extent, the former is extremely flawed.  As I mentioned earlier, animals like oxen were the prefered beasts for load hauling in the peasant world.  They could pull steel plows, carts, you name it.  If a horse could pull it, so could a bull.

Not to mention several obvious reasons to travel.  People often married out to partners from other towns.  This was done to avoid inbreeding, which frequently led to an accumulation of negetive features and birth defects.  Then, of course are merchents and  mercenaries travel often for work
[close]

GoblinFae

I'm sorry that you feel you have to go. We at SotE are very open to all sorts of ideas and fun all for the sake of writing. That being said, we wish you well on your writing journey and hope that you find somewhere that suits your tastes best. :)

Happy Writing!
GoblinFae
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visualspice

Quote from: One-time Warrior on May 18, 2017, 08:58:57 PM
Saddly, I will not be joining the site in its current state as there are a number of unfortunate anachronisms that, sadly, shatter immersion and limit the believability of the stories I had hoped to write.  I desperately wanted to let things go at that but, unfortunately the issues that drove me away are based on the same infuriating myths that agitate anyone with a genuine interest in things that are medieval.

Serf/Slaves
Starting with the smallest, It is absurd to think that a society would create two of the same social class.  In reality, slavery and feudalism (the political structure that created the serf contract), are inherently at odds with each other.

Slavery revolves around small scale ownership of property.  Take, for example, Roman Gladiatorial tradition, Scandinavian Thralls or Southern American plantation culture.  In all cases, owning slaves is extremely expensive, prohibitively so.  This meant that if someone intended to rely on slave labor, they could ownly control land that their slaves could reliably work.

Things began to change in the High Middle ages as the manorial system left more and more land in the control of a lord.  Eventually, lords came to own so much land on their own that they simply could not afford to employ slaves to farm it.  Instead, they allowed commoners to take up residence on their land and farm it.  In exchange for a place to live and the protection of their kneckts or "bondsmen," these farmers payed taxes in the form of a portion their grain harvest.  House servants saw a similar relationship with their masters: it simply proves simpler and more cost effective to pay a workforce, particularly when you lived in such close proximity to said workforce.

Another reason why slavery didn't work in the Middle Ages was the logistical cost of aquiring slaves.  Say a new lord takes control of a manor; historically, it was often simpler and cheaper to just let the people living there stay and pay taxes to the new lord, rather than to move in a bunch of slaves to do the work of the last lord's slaves.  Taking Prisoners in battle would be the next best option, except you could often make more money ransoming the POWs back to their families.  As for criminals, how trustworthy is a thief or a killer?    No, it was easier to just execute or mutilate criminals.
[close]

People Would Drink Water
The problem with drinking alcohol all the time is that alcohol is the exact opposite of thirst quenching.  If someone did try to survive by taking hits off a wineskin, they would eventually die, whether from alcohol poisoning or dehydration, didn't matter.

As for not drinking water, this is a hoax and you should be ashamed for believing it.  First, fresh sources of drinking water, such as the Tigris, Euphrates, Indus and Nile rivers were the foundation of civilization, specifically because they were ideal sources of clean drinking water.  Second, even if you were unlucky enough to only have dirty water, fire was easy to make.  All you would have to do is boil it and presto, you had perfectly drinkable water.  And let's not forget wells.  After all, I myself can vouch for the consumability of even unfiltered well water (I drank about a gallon today).
[close]

Why is Everyone wearing Leather
While partially tied to my own bias, leather would be extremely rare in an agrarian society.  Why?  Because leather is tied closely to the cattle industry.  Prior to the late 1800s, with its seas of Midwestern, Australian and Japanese cattle, a family of farmers might only own one or two animals whole were worth more alive than dead.  After all, those oxen were not only a source of milk or cheese, but a work animal, used to haul a plow or cart.

Not to say that people did not kill cattle for beef and leather, but such things were rare and what material it gave you was earmarked for a number of roles that took priority over tacky vests: soles of shoes needed to be made of layers of hard leather, something absolutely necessary for anyone who spent any amount of time on their feet.  After all, medieval people did not have polymer rubber to protect their feet from sharp rocks and tree branches.  Belts, of course were improtant but could often be made of jut or hemp rope if you happened to be poor.
[close]

Traveling
People assume that travel within medieval Europe was impossible because A) only horses can be used as pack animals and B) only rich folk had horses.  While the latter point is true to an extent, the former is extremely flawed.  As I mentioned earlier, animals like oxen were the prefered beasts for load hauling in the peasant world.  They could pull steel plows, carts, you name it.  If a horse could pull it, so could a bull.

Not to mention several obvious reasons to travel.  People often married out to partners from other towns.  This was done to avoid inbreeding, which frequently led to an accumulation of negetive features and birth defects.  Then, of course are merchents and  mercenaries travel often for work
[close]

You make a lot of good points but this is a fantasy rp with a set lore, not a historical one. I suggest, in your future hunting, to look into historical based rpgs.
CHECK OUT MY LATEST SITE EVENT!
The Never King- a king erased from history because of his dabblings in dark magic (among other things...) suddenly because a present day problem when an unlikely group of adventurers 'awakens' him from the grave. You can read more about the event on the plotting page here and information page here!

I ran the Connlaothian civil war. For more info, check out it's page here. The war has now turned into a 'Cold War' with it's plotting page found here. It's no longer a huge site wide event but the scars are there.

My currently active characters:
Grand Duke Calent Allarrick // Aella Coleridge // Blaith Harmond // Kella Harmond  // Hope Allarrick // Krah Mordeth // Mehtwald Allaen // Zannrick Austengarde // Katahnia Harmond // Jinai Rinstgate  // Leif Arrant // Dekka Blade  // Kentamin Dhelsbar  // Dahnny Quills  // Victoria Armani  // Ohna Waitsmith  // Jarrett L'isson  // Trest Arristaire  // Clayton "Jack-in-the-Box" Wilson // Cullen  //  Vels // Shay // Killian  // Fluke  // Mellesta // Danning // Petrin // Gavriella // Dornsley // Miersck // Aelith // Iyla // Angel // Ellarrah // Persea Ah'nikh // Phone // Jace // Ne'friss // Opus Dey // Lord Amalin // Ehvren // Narophne // Edward // Dehzrehn // Chase Vander // Valeska // Jayo //Layana // Rezvek // Red Sun // Harmanaija // Mirajah // Liana // Oska //Hay-gee // Beatrice // Ninn // Dao'bachpa //Pao'orha // Mae'leena // Davishire // Davina// Gemla // Hyathia //Thethysis // Urd // Missendria // Ina-herit // Feni'tat // Phen // Evelyn // Kell // Striker // Ithica // Connor // Vlint // The Gambler // Lord Aegis // Thomas // Quince // Althea // Vaeyna // Ihlsepar Asawa'eht // Krazxick // Djchastese // Katoma // Na'o // Moonlight // Bluesong //Caollette // Artemis // Arrick // Evetta //Jackal // Winston //Lenny // Anphis // Hebara //Ibra // Dre'hn // Veride // Arthund // Kao

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