Serendipity

[Goldie]

Oh I agree! I meant that it would be more than jealousy. Some people would obviously be jealous, they'd want that...but most I think would be angry. Like you said, upset that they're worried about the exact shade of yellow, and spending thousands on clothing while there are people starving. I didn't mean for it to come off as just jealousy xD it's also insulting to the people who worked their butts off and are getting dissed left and right by the nobles.



And also, talking about how we have mostly independents and wanderers? To be completely honest....the reason that I see as why people play them more is because of the freedom. They're not restricted by styles or by laws that are in a city. I know that when I play a wanderer, I want them to be outside of the system. It provides a lot more creativity for players >_>


And again, Rina, these are ideas. Nothing is set, it's just a starting point. No, I'm not saying their only thing is a victim. I'm merely pointing out something that COULD happen. I'm not saying that's all it has to be. I'm not putting out fully developed ideas, I'm just giving examples. Right now, however, I'm feeling attacked. It's brainstorming, it's not "come up with a perfectly outlined idea that can be implemented today." So that said, I'm bowing out.

[Anonymous]

It should be left up to the player on which side to take, if there is any, not forced on them. xD And with magic not having done  anything that could be considered honestly /bad/ in recent history it's hard to take Connlaoth's side.

I think that Anonymous Player A made a very valid point to me over MSN. Give the world gray areas and let players and characters take their own side, instead of forcing it on them by having only goodness and light in some nations and only meanness and bigotry in others.

And Gold, I'm not trying to attack you and I'm sorry that it came off that way. I'm just very blunt and I will try and curb that in the future. I wasn't trying to pile that up on you. I'm just trying to defend my side of the argument and giving examples. I was trying to debate with you, not attack you and I apologize it came off that way.

[Rhindeer]

If I made you feel attacked, sorry, Goldie! D8 Wasn't my intention. I wanted clarification and was just adding my 2 cents. xD It's brainstorming, but it can get a little debate-y. Don't bow out! We just all have opinions, and it's important for everyone to get their ideas out on the table, debate a little if they disagree, and concede if someone has convinced them and stuff. :3 Like I conceded on the middle class. I just want clarification of how big that middle class is. Stuff like that!

^^; And I can be a bit to the point when I get debate-y, so sorry if it came across harshly.

None of us expect this to be implemented TODAY. xD;; This is just about hashing out ideas, airing out thoughts, so that we can finally decide what direction we're going in. I think we're all pretty opinionated and passionate. xD

[Anonymous]

I am supposed to put my two cents in the whole thing, so I suppose that I should. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of Classism in Serendipity. I know that some people don't want it to be hippy fae people and for there to be conflict and struggles, but in my opinion, I don't think classism is good for Serendipity. I'm not saying there can't be some conflict and anger of some kind...but Serendipity always had this..."We're a rich prosperous nation, with lots to trade and all this wealth." to it. With a king like Fenway knowing taxation and what not, I can't see that he would just let there be such a huge divide in people. It's not a perfect idea, but it's just these...thoughts of mine.

It just doesn't feel like something that's appropriate for Serendipity, considering what we see it being like. We've got all these provinces invested in trade and workforce, it just doesn't feel like it would be...fluid to have this huge divide of classes. I mean yes, the nobility will be all up on the top with their fancy clothes and what not, but below them, I don't see many people honestly suffering in poverty and starvation.

I would like to see some form of conflict in Serendipity, but I don't want to see classism. I don't think it's very...them. I'm not gonna quote any research texts for this, I'm not gonna say like "Oh certain eras had stuff like this" because I'm lazy...but just from my heart of hearts, of how I feel that Serendipity is...classism just doesn't feel like them. It feels like something that is Serendipity would get taken away I think? Some may think differently, and some may think similar to me.

I don't mind if there are peasantry, middle class, and nobility. That's cool, I like it, and can be fun! I'm not saying there shouldn't be some conflict. I'm not saying there can't be racism of some kind, but for Serendipity, I'm uncomfortable, and unconvinced that Classism would really be what it needs.

[Anonymous]

I'm not seeing the need to make the grey ourselves.

We set out the board and people move their characters around, there's plenty of grey going on but it's in peoples posts.  OT but maybe figure out a way to get people to say what's going on with their finished threads so we can add it to the wide-look of things for the countries?

The Black for serendipity.
- Racist against not-full blooded Serenians ( I think this was brought up?) That would make bad for the king, since he's not very serenian.
- Jealousy
- Classism??
- Don't do practical things ( sewing, black smithing, physical labour things, I guess?)
- some major poverty
- You're either rich or you're poor ( what I gathered from the whole no middle class thing)

The Grey
- Magic based society.

The White...
...A few of them are rich and have sparkly clothing?
I can't think of anymore good things.
They have good trade?

I was also under the impression these boards were for mods and admins so we could talk it over. If not I suggest we move the boards to public domain so everyone can say their point, since Rina is seemingly doing it anyway and getting a wider view of what the players want makes sense.

On that note, magic does do bad shit, but it's in peoples threads like the rest of the mishmash of colours on the site. Just thought I'd point that out.

[Anonymous]

Really? To me, racism seems something really un-Serenian. But, I mean, they are descended from fae. And I loved Gold's idea that there is this urge to be more pureblooded than other people, that there is this snobbery among the nobles.

So why couldn't that trickle down to the lower classes living harsher lives? That they don't have as many luxuries as other nations do. Fenway doesn't have to be some asshole king taxing his nation to death ala Prince John from Robin Hood for there to be poor people. Fenway has no control over his peoples opinions.

I want to see the classism not because the nobles are jerks and trying to take advantage of the poor, but they are just self absorbed. They live these wealthy, luxurious lives and so don't always think, "Huh, maybe it's hard for the peasants to have to use dirt/mud roads and have to dump their sewage in the streets because we don't have great sanitation." I want gray, not black and white.

[Rhindeer]

There are many, many rich countries that have classism. Middle Eastern countries, for example, have ridiculously rich kings while their people are languishing in poverty.

I don't think classism, or Serendipity's other issues, has to reflect poorly on Fenway. It doesn't. Fenway is a good human being and a good king.

With a king like Fenway knowing taxation and what not, I can't see that he would just let there be such a huge divide in people. It's not a perfect idea, but it's just these...thoughts of mine.

A leader does not have control over how his people view other people, especially if those viewpoints are deeply ingrained in the society. There were kings before Fenway; Serendipity was a nation before Fenway came.

No one is proposing Fenway be a tyrannical Prince John that taxes his people to death. xD He can honestly be looking for solutions if that is how Gold wants to play him, but the society will not reflect poorly upon him as a human being and a leader. And attitudes do NOT change over night. Look at modern society. Thousands and thousands of years of humans living on Earth, and only half a decade ago there was still segregation in the USA. Only a century ago, and women couldn't vote. There is still classism, still racism, still bigotry.

How is classism a horrible thing, too horrible to have in Serendipity, but racism is fine and dandy? xD I think racism makes less sense than classism, considering the weird creatures Serendipity accepts into its society. Classism makes sense to me, because of the divide between nobles and peasants that were are seeing--and it adds a fun social dynamic for players to mess with.

[Rhindeer]

...whoa, hivemind re: Prince John analogy. XD

[Goldie]

Ok, I probably should apologize for being overly sensitive about the whole thing, but just...in the future, a debate should be about giving ideas, elaborating on ideas, or providing legitimate reasons as to why you may not agree. That's really it. Seeing a whole post where I'm quoted with a single negative sentence following it...that feels like attack because it doesn't provide anything really proactive, that's all.


As for Shizzy, I both agree and disagree with what you're saying....I agree that, with the provinces and everything, the large class divide seems....out of place. Especially with Serendipity being as productive as it is, I can't imagine that the majority of the population would be peasants...it just doesn't really fit from where I stand. I see the middle class if anything being the prominent one. Obviously the upper class would be an elect, family ties type deal....but it's not a poverty stricken country....and I never saw it as an overly farm type place either. That leaves merchants and traders.

I don't, however, think we should exclude classism. I think it follows the natural way of things, really. People don't like people that they can't relate to, or who find pretentious or just silly. This doesn't meant that ALL would hate each other...and I think it makes most sense as something that's been bubbling up under the surface. Discontent with the classes.... I can see how blatant classism seems out of place though....especially with a king who isn't, technically, of noble blood thanks to Serendipities laws. And the queen before him was no noblewoman either.

So maybe that's a starting point? The nobility feeling jilted, the middle class/low classes seeing more of their people on the throne...causing dissent?

Again, I may be fishing. Just ideas.

(And I seem to type slowly, lol....so this is kind of missing the last few posts, I apologize)

[Anonymous]

I never said any of my ideas ever made sense, it was just how I felt xD

I think Gold is sort of onto something though!

[Goldie]

lol, I know the feeling of having a lot of ideas and not knowing how to word them xD I'm glad I was able to sort through them with my awesome psychic powers!

[Rhindeer]

Wait, what do the existence of provinces have anything to do with there NOT being a huge split in the people re: classism? O_o I'm honestly confused how that changes anything, so if someone could please explain...? ^^;

[Rhindeer]

Another thought! xD (Sorry for double-posting like mad)...

...Who is feeding these people? If the middle class is the prominent one...see, that still doesn't make sense. Who is making the food? Most people were peasants back in those days (I know, we're not historical, but there still aren't grocery stores or pesticides or mass produced food in SotE's world) because most people were farmers BECAUSE food had to come from somewhere. If anything, I see the biggest population in Serendipity being farmers, which was kinda what I was going for anyway when I first made Serendipity as a rural society...xD

[Rhindeer]

And following that up, most people are NOT going to be living in cities, anyway. Most people will be living in rural villages...so...the idea of the middle class being the prominent one still makes no sense to me. :

[Goldie]

Well....I'm not exactly sure how to describe the whole province thing....so I'm going to start with the easier one xD

I was always under the impression that low-class were the farm-hands...the servants who get paid practically nothing...the ones who can't really afford anything with the direct support of an upper/merchant class. So, from my perspective, farmers aren't low-class! they have to own the land, they have to farm the land and hire the people to do it...farmers are middle class because, in a way too, they're traders. Taking their goods and such to market and such. Which, rural or not, which I can see working definitely, they obviously need farmers (and you did originally make it a more farm central place), they would still be middle class.

Does that make sense?

[Tally]

I think we shouldn't shackle ourselves to a strict adherence to what is realistically medieval.  Whatever we do doesn't have to make sense for a medieval setting.  It just has to make sense for our setting. A middle class may not make sense for some other medieval setting, but I think Serendipity would benefit from having one.

Magic/technology:
I was always under the impression that Serendipity lagged slightly behind Connlaoth (but was slightly ahead of Adela) in technology both because of their reliance on magic and their predisposition to sit in their ivory towers contemplating the mysteries of the universe instead of innovating practical ideas. I see them as just not having the drive to develop technology that fast. Besides, they make up for a lack of technological development with their significant magical development.

Conflicts:
-Class struggles. A more practical-minded middle class that is just educated enough to be able to call the nobility on their bullshit and just powerful enough to try and do something about it.  The nobility see themselves as benevolent—but greater evolved—beings with a responsibility to pity and care for the lower citizens.
-Back-stabbing, treacherous, deceptive noble class.  Serenians have this projected image of gentle spirituality and grace, but they're just as capable of selfishness and depravity as any other human. Given that they have such an active and powerful noble class, give the nobility not only their frivolous habits, but a reputation for being two-faced and deceitful.
-Black magic! Underground cults! With such a prevalent mage factor in Serendipity, why not introduce a network of dark mages and cultists to the country?  They could have their own secret court and meeting places. Human sacrifice, worshiping demons, the whole gruesome nine yards. BONUS!: Gives Connlaoth something to point at and go "See?! See what magic gets you??"

[Goldie]

I....have nothing to add. I think Tal has pretty much summed up everything that's been rolling around in my head.

[Anonymous]

Tal deserves hugs and love for this. I shall give her some because I like it, I think it's pretty great.

[Rhindeer]

Farmers didn't own the land, though; nobles did, and the farmers worked for the nobles. ^^;

I guess we need to decide if we go that route, though. Do we want the farmers to be land-owning? Personally, I don't like it, but I'll go with what the majority decides.

And I like that stuff, Tal! And am in agreement. I really love the class conflicts; that's what I was hoping for. <3 And yay black magic and cultists! xDD

[Tally]

Farmers didn't own the land, though; nobles did, and the farmers worked for the nobles. ^^;

There is a world of possibilities in the gap between farmer and noble.