Permafrost and Peat Bogs? (Hyoite Lore Conflict)

[Kingfisher]

Throughout the brief summer, much of the permafrost melts to form bogs or temporary streams.

Now, this may be a semantic error but "Permafrost" literally means permanent frost.  By a textbook definition, it is a state in which soil remains frozen year round (minimum of two years), meaning that permafrost will only melt during catastrophic warming periods (ie: Global Climate Change).  As a result, Tundra biomes should never produce wetlands.

That said, how much of the region is actually tundra?  Looking at the site map, I wonder just what parallel Hyoite and Sionad would fall into.  If it's all the way up on the Pole, that would make Connlaoth a Taiga (boreal forest) and thus hamper the land's agricultural viability.  However, assuming Connlaoth is within the Temperate zone (ie: Lower 48), and that Sionad is along the northern border (ie: Canada), Sionad would most likely turn out to be Taiga (which can develop peat bogs in Summer).

Alternatively, Sionad could be a Cursed Tundra, justifying the existence of permafrost on the edge of Temperate farmland.

[Celegwen]

I see where you're coming from (as I'm also a total nerd about this stuff), but considering it's a fantasy setting, players/writers don't really concern themselves too much with the geographical and climate accuracies of the places in which they're playing.

It's kind of difficult to have a setting that allows for a full range of tundra, desert, and rainforest to exist on a single continent, but I think SotE does a wonderful job of keeping them separate, yet inclusive for all characters and players.

"Here you will find exotic city-states and thriving kingdoms, miles of untamed wilderness to explore and untold adventures to discover."
"SotE has always been a community for writers, readers, artists, and anyone who just wants to have fun and lose themselves in a fantasy world for a while."
(Quotes taken from the Main Page)

It's a fantasy world, so it's not meant to be perfectly and accurately in line with the real world. That's the fun of fantasy!

[Rhindeer]

I'll just say that Hyoite's climate is largely modeled after the Alaskan tundra, which does indeed have wetlands! Traveled the Alaskan tundra one summer. It was pretty awesome!

Wetlands are areas that are inundated or saturated by surface or ground water at a frequency and duration sufficient to support, and that under normal circumstances do support, a prevalence of vegetation typically adapted for life in saturated soil conditions. Wetlands generally include tundra, permafrost areas, marshes, bogs, and similar areas.

Basically, magical shenanigans can be used to explain the existence of permafrost, if needed. After all, Fell is up there. Plus not all the permafrost melts, hence the word "much" rather than "all".

There is also a mountain range between Connlaoth and Sioned, so that would change things a bit. Also accounting for altitude and all that. Needless to say, Connlaoth's agriculture is doing pretty darned well! 8D

Aaand what SDB said with regards to it being a fantasy site. Modeled and researched after real life, but still fantasy at the end of the day, and, again, not a direct reflection of our world. We take a lot of liberties for pretendy funtimes.

[Aeytrious]

To go a bit further, let me explain something that has been discussed between the lore crafters of the site but I don't think ever in public. This setting is on the planet Earth, third planet from the sun in the Sol system of the Milky Way. That is a familiar place for all of us. However, this facet of the Multiverse is thick with magic, and other supernatural energies. It is these energies that caused the great land mass of Pangaea to split in the way that it did, instead of the way it did in our Universe. It caused the evolution and birth of much flora and fauna that are only found in a fantasy setting. It suffuses most things great and small to some degree, from quarks and gluons, to super clusters. It is in essence a very part of the laws of physics and biology. Like most energies in our world with their theorized anti-particles, SotE and RotE have anti-magic. With magic and anti-magic being both accepted realities of our crafted setting, the practical application of Earths physical laws is by definition not. This impracticality is taken further by the rule-of-cool. If something doesn't work irl, that doesn't mean it doesn't work here.

[Kingfisher]

Point for Rhi-Rhi for the kick in the rear and putting me on the trail of "Muskegs."  I did what research I could on tundra but neglected the bog angle; my fault for dropping the proverbial ball.  That said, I still object to "much" of the permafrost melting.  As I said, permafrost should not melt, for mostly semantic reasons.  At this point, its very minor but still an important distinction.  After all, if 'much of the permafrost melted', much of the bogs would simply drain away and dry up.


Moving on, I do believe, in principal, in world altering magic.  I would like to say, though, that looking at a climate map of the world, there is a clear pattern in the relationship between biomes.  A pattern that (Sot)Earth actually seems to follow.  So the lack of a taiga is most striking specifically because it is such an internally special case.

At this point I would like to make a new Suggestion:
Most natural magic seems to work more subtly than the complete destruction of a biome (please correct me if I'm reading things wrong).  EDIT: Why does magic seem to be affecting Sionad so aggressively in comparison to other regions?

And just to be clear: I have nothing against Tundra.  Knowing it is inspired by the Alaskan tundra is the excuse I needed to include my favorite dog breed in an RP...at some point.

[GoblinFae]

Hi!

I can actually jump in on this one! Permafrost DO thaw, especially along coastlines as there are also different types of permafrost. Even Antarctica in real world Earth experiences various types and levels of thawing permafrost, some of which we could consider to be quite significant. This of course does not drag in the global-warming/climate-change factors which I won't get into because that's a whole new can of worms and I haven't had my morning caffeine yet XD.

As for the taiga, we have Connlaoth's mountains creating a different environment to effect this creation. But, again this is not RL Earth. This is SotE. Le'raana is not any specific real world Earth continent. It is a mashup of things as well as a creation of things all of our own. It is therefore difficult to put a label on things as well as to squish things into boxes of it "should be this" or "should be that" or "should have this" or "should have that."

Another key factor that the others mentioned that I'd like to expand on is that while SotE is not IRL Earth, that also means that things like the climate shifts, the geography, and then on top of that all the affects of magic will not match and perfectly overlap the concepts we know and understand IRL. There will of course be parallels; we cannot have created this world without integrating things we know and understand either from studies, personal experience, or extensive research. But, we also want this to be a fun and safe space to go a bit crazy and wild with breaking the mold by having a fantasy-world setting. We enjoy the mysteries of why magic does what it does because it gives room and growth for everyone to have their own theories and fun times.

It is like what we have The Fell. The mystery of The Fell shall NEVER be revealed. It shall never be delved into and it shall always be left open for rumors to abound. That being said, I wouldn't necessarily say the magic in the tundra is more or less aggressive than other places. Trying to explain all the mysteries, defeats the mystery of the world. The peoples of this world, in this setting, aren't going to have the tools and science/magic to understand all the workings at this point anyway.

We're really glad that you enjoy our world here and that you are enthusiastic about getting to the bottom of everything. Unfortunately, there are not always going to be answers we can/will give and most of all those answers will not always make sense in a real world construct perspective. The introduction of magic alone, kills that as being possible.

What we CAN always help with is how the lore affects characters and plots and situations. We are always creating and building and ADDING new things. There is not a single time that one of us updates or fixes something on the admin side, where the world lore doesn't gets a new chunk of information updated or added in as well. So definitely be on the lookout for the new magic we sprinkle about as we work. If you have questions for how we can help you enrich your plots and characters we would be more than happy to help ^-^

Happy writing!

[Kingfisher]

I really wanted to just step away and let it all go...I tried...I really did.

The problem I have with Sionad's yearly thaw is not just that it happens (as I think I've mentioned).  I'm not even saying that permafrost cannot melt.  What I am saying is that permafrost does not thaw as described on the Hyoite page.  The lore states that "much of the permafrost thaws to form bogs or shallow temporary streams."  My problem is that this isn't permafrost.  As said, ground ice only qualifies as permafrost if it remains completely frozen for two consecutive years.  In fact, permafrost does not even technically require ground ice to be classed as permafrost.

Also, from a possibly more relevant perspective, "Permafrost" as the term is used today is a very specific and scientific concept.  From a narrative, cultural and architectual perspective and to a lay person who isn't drilling out core samples and measuring subsurface temperatures; "Permanent frost" never melts in a meaninful way.

Moving back to my concern regarding the lack of a taiga/subarctic belt: The problem is that, fundamentally (Spirit)Earth is (RL)Earth.  Granted, not everything is identical but as I said, the climate rules are followed.  The tropical zone does form a Rainforest, Subtropics have a sandy desert, highly populous temperate zones for agrarian populations and tundra up near the arctic circle.  That's why the absense of a subartic taiga is so confusing to me.  Not just that it isn't there but rather that no one even seems to notice.

The transition between the temperate zone and the tundra, according to lore is incredibly abrupt. And no, a razor thin mountain range is not enough to justify this.  Climate zones are fundimentally a consequence of incoming sunlight.  The more direct, the more consistent the supply of solar radiation, the warmer the earth becomes (hence hot, humid tropical rainforests).  What this means, according to (Spirit)Earth's lore, is that something is happening in the subartic region to nullify the effect of solar radiation, turning it into tundra.  And considering that the tundra does share a border with (assumed) temperate Connlaoth...To illustrate, if someone were to climb the mountains between the two regions, Sionad could well be in the dead of winter while Connlaoth is enjoying the beauty of a late spring day.

That's why Fell is such a bad comparison: Fell both exists and people know that it exists.  Yet no one seems to recognise that the sun dims in an obviously unnatural manner as soon as they cross some imaginary line or that unlike everywhere else one Earth, unshaded ground does not warm up for 8 months out of the year.

PS: Sorry if I seem abrasive, defensive or testy.  I promise, I don't mean any offense.  There is a distinct possibility that I am just Obsessive Compulsive (Undiagnosed) with a bad habit of projecting my expectation and standards onto other people and projects.

[Aeytrious]

Connlaoth is not entirely temperate. Hell, it's barely temperate. Serendipity's more northern regions are an alpine like biome. Read the Darken Vei province page. Connlaoth has a biome more similar to Canada/Russia. The more north you go the colder it is the more snow there is. I'm sure the specific biome you're looking for is found in Connlaoth. As for Hyoite, I'd compare it to Ice Wind Dale of the Forgotten Realms world Faerûn. Think of the Kilanthro Mountains as the Spine of the World. Not 100% frozen 100% of the time. Oh and by the way. Have we mentioned? Magic. Anytime you see something that doesn't make sense, just think to yourself, "hmmm, I wonder what kind of magic is causing that. And I wonder what kind of fun scenario I can come up with for this nonsense." I'm not sure if we've mentioned this either, Le'raana is 20% of the continents of the planet. You are only playing on a single Quadrant of the planet. There are even crazier biomes planned. Things never seen on earth. Hope you're ready for lots of stuff that makes Zero Earth sense.